Timing Mark Question

T-Max

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This is related to my current emissions problem as per my "minumum idle speed" thread. It's also related to my thread earlier this year (started late last year) entitled "1994 Chevy Surburban running way too rich and ..."

Namely, in that prior thread I talked about the problem I was having setting the timing. If you're really bored, you can read it here -

http://chevyforum.org/chevy-forums/showpost.php?p=47524&postcount=31

So since I'm now running a tad too rich at idle to pass NJ inspection, and since a few people have suggested retarding the timing a bit, I went back to that "sawtooth timing plate" (which is apparently called the "timing tab") today. As I said in my prior thread, the plate is hard to see and hard to get at. I never did go back (last time) and try to clean it up so that I could actually read where the "0" mark is. So I decided to do that today.

I removed the upper plastic fan shroud to give me better access. Then I loosened the serpentine belt and moved it out of the way. That gave me very good access to the timing plate for both viewing and cleaning. I hit it with a wire brush and got it cleaned up a bit.

But the bad news is that it's pretty rusty and I still can't make out much of anything on it other than MAYBE a "4" on one of the marks. I'm pretty sure it's a 4, but not positive.

Now, here's a timing plate that looks very much like mine -

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/ZZdaryl/2010-01-30_181920_timing2.png

that came from this article -

http://www.justanswer.com/gm/32woa-1994-gmc-sanoma-4x4-4-3-lt-engine-ned.html

As you can see, it's suggested in that article that this timing plate is not for my 5.7 L Suburban engine. But it's the closest one to mine that I've found so far. It even appears to have the "see thru" tube that mine has (I think it's that circular thing at the bottom of the plate in the picture). One difference, however, is that my plate only has 3 "teeth" whereas this one has 4. So mine doesn't have the last tooth which is the last tooth at the top in the picture.

But my plate does have the deeper cut which is the "0" mark on this plate. Therefore, I suspect that this deeper cut on my plate is also the "0" mark. Consistent with this notion is the fact that the "4" that I think I can make out on my plate is also where the 4 on this plate is.

Also consistent with this notion is what else I did; namely, I positioned the crank pulley such that the timing mark lined up with the deeper cut "0" mark on my plate (which I'm assuming is the "0" mark). I then removed the distributor cap and checked the rotor position vis-a-vis the #1 lug on the cap. The rotor was significantly to the left of that #1 lug, which would indicate that the timing is somewhat advanced. That makes sense because when I set the timing back when, I used the yellow mark that was already on the timing plate (put there by a prior mechanic).

So if I'm reading my plate correctly, that prior yellow mark was about 8 degrees before TDC, and thus I set the timing pretty significantly advanced.

So, my question very simply is this:

If anyone out there knows what the timing plate looks like on a 1994 K1500 5.7 L TBI Chevy Suburban, and can thus confirm (or disconfirm?) that the "0" mark is where I think it is, I'd sure appreciate it.

Tomorrow I'll go to my local library and see if Chiltons shows it for my truck. But I'm not too hopeful that it will.

P.S.: The "see thru" tube is not used on my truck to set the timing. I'm guessing that it's used on other models and Chevy just put the same plate on many different models.
 
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Couldnt listen to the sound track on this video but see if it is of help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWdmNozRMq0

Thanks much for that video. You nailed it. That is indeed my timing plate and it clearly shows the "0" mark where I thought it was. I was able to freeze the video at the moment the timing light flashed (2:03 being one such moment) and can see the plate very clearly.

Which means that when I set the timing previously, I set it 6 - 8 degrees advanced.

Note that I viewed the video on full screen mode, making it easier to see.

Thanks again. That should solve my timing problem once and for all.

For others, note that on my 1994 Suburban, the wire that you disconnect when setting the timing (that he talks about) is under the dash on the passenger side on my truck. It's down where the heater motor is and there's a connection there to simply unplug the wire. It's easy to identify by the color of the wire (tan with a black stripe).

On the video guy's truck, the connector was under the hood near the firewall.

Note also that when you disconnect this wire to set the timing, it will set an error code that has to be cleared when you're done. I haven't finished viewing the video, so I don't know if he makes that point clearly (tho I do note that halfway thru he shows the computer info and notes the error code (at ~3:55).

Thanks again. MUCH appreciated !!
 
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Remembering some of the other possibilities, did you ever confirm that you have a 195 thermostat?
 
Remembering some of the other possibilities, did you ever confirm that you have a 195 thermostat?

No, I haven't checked the thermostat yet.

I re-set the timing so that it's now about 3 degrees retarded. I also checked the EGR valve operation by observing it as I revved the engine a bit. It moves somewhat (not a lot) but since it's normally closed at idle, I don't see how it could be the problem since my emissions are high only at idle and not at "high idle" (which I assume is intended to be normal driving conditions).

I also replaced a potential vacuum leak in the PCV valve tubing, which I don't think was leaking at all. The 90 degree elbow connection at the TBI cracked when I pulled it off to replace the PCV valve (some time ago), so I had tightened it with a couple of wire bread wrapper things. I doubt it was leaking, but just to be safe I've now replaced the entire original tubing setup with a foot-long length of neoprene hose which makes a smooth arc to the PCV valve, which can accomodate the new arcing position because it just sits down in the valve cover and can be spun around to any orientation.

So that potential problem has been eliminated.

Frankly, I think I may be out of corrective measures (other than your thermostat suggestion). I'll take it back to inspection one more time to see how it does, but I'm not very hopeful.

When I do, I will prop the air cleaner butterfly valve open (to eliminate that potential problem that I don't really think is a problem) and also remove the air cleaner (which is fairly new and quite clean, but that'll take it out of the equation as well).

If I fail again (which I kinda expect), I guess I'll have to take it to a shop and see what they think. At least they should have the equipment to pinpoint the problem and can tell me what they think it is.

BTW, my tailpipe (which is fairly new and which I've cleaned with a wire brush to eliminate all that black soot I previously had there) does appear to be a tad on the blackish side. I may have already mentioned this. What I'd like to see is that nice grayish-white residue indicative of a lean, mean clean-burning engine.

But that's not what I see.
 
. . . I also checked the EGR valve operation by observing it as I revved the engine a bit. It moves somewhat (not a lot) but since it's normally closed at idle, I don't see how it could be the problem since my emissions are high only at idle and not at "high idle" (which I assume is intended to be normal driving conditions). . .

I might have to re-think the EGR valve. I suppose if it has some carbon deposits on it and is hanging partially open at idle, that could be responsible for my high idle emissions.

So I may have to remove that thing and check it out (and likely clean it). The nuts holding it on are pretty rusty, so I hope it doesn't turn into a major project beyond simply removing it and cleaning it.

And the gasket could be a problem since I don't know that one can be purchased separately.
 
. . . Frankly, I think I may be out of corrective measures (other than your thermostat suggestion). I'll take it back to inspection one more time to see how it does, but I'm not very hopeful.

When I do, I will prop the air cleaner butterfly valve open (to eliminate that potential problem that I don't really think is a problem) and also remove the air cleaner (which is fairly new and quite clean, but that'll take it out of the equation as well). . .

Okay, here's the update. I went to inspection this afternoon and ALMOST passed.

My idle reading was 247 ppm (needs to be 220 ppm or less).

My "high idle" reading also was very low @ 56 ppm (same 220 standard)

Last time I went my readings were 503 & 165, so both readings are way down.

What I did since last time was to retard the timing from approx 6-8° advanced to approx 3-4° retarded.

I also propped open the air cleaner butterfly valve so that it is totally open (it seemed to be mostly closed previously).

I also removed the air cleaner element for the test.

And I also had replaced the potentially leaking PCV vacuum line, which I don't think was really leaking but that was a simple cheap fix.

So I'm thinking that if I retard the timing a bit more, I'll go again and see how it goes. I'm really close to passing and I just need a bit more. If it doesn't pass again, I'll scootch the idle up a bit and see what that does.

As a former chemist, I know that changing more than one variable at a time is a problem because if you get a different result, you don't know which variable change was responsible, etc.

So I changed 4 variables this time and I thus can't tell which one had the desirable effect, or if they all did, what the relative contributions were.

Also, even tho' the inspection is only about 25 miles round trip, my tailpipe does seem cleaner now, and I also don't have as much of a hydrocarbon smell at idle, which makes sense given the current readings.

Also BTW, I did NOT mess with the EGR valve. And I don't think I will for the moment because I am very close to passing.
 
I have my fingers crossed, good luck and keep us posted.
 
On the EGR valve, I should have mentioned this site that I found -

http://www.wikihow.com/Clean-Your-EGR-Valve

if only for the recommendation that when cleaning an electronic EGR valve (which is what we have), the negative battery terminal should be disconnected as the first step ("Disconnect the negative battery cable from the battery to ensure no current is flowing through the system to avoid short-circuiting the electronic component that controls the valve..").

I did buy a gasket in anticipation of pulling and cleaning the valve and ports, etc., and I may well do that later. But for now, I don't want to mess with it because I am so close to passing the emissions test.

If I ever get this Beast to pass, then I can fiddle with the EGR valve because I'll have a couple of years before I have to be reinspected.
 
. . . So I'm thinking that if I retard the timing a bit more, I'll go again and see how it goes. I'm really close to passing and I just need a bit more. If it doesn't pass again, I'll scootch the idle up a bit and see what that does. . .

Woo Hoo! I finally passed (yesterday).

Only change since last time was to further retard the timing. I'd estimate that it was retarded ~10-12 degrees. My idle reading was 159 ppm (needs to be 220 ppm or less) and my "high idle" reading went up a bit to 78 ppm (same 220 standard).

As a result of retarding the timing, my idle speed in Drive dropped to 200 rpm and in Neutral or Park to ~400 rpm. Way low.

But it passed with flying colors. So now I can re-set the timing, put the air cleaner element back in and put the air cleaner butterfly valve back the way it's supposed to be. I should also take a look at the thermostat because although my temperature gauge isn't working properly (it's "spotty") I never saw it get above 140° and that's just not warm enough with winter coming on.

I'll also take a look at that EGR valve and probably remove it and clean it. If I do, I'll report back on my findings.

Also note that my tailpipe still looks too blackish for my tastes. I cleaned it before I went and only drove it about 35 miles after cleaning it, so the fact that it already looks like it has a blackish coating on the inside doesn't sit too well with me.

So in the end I'd have to say that the key was to retard the timing.

BTW, after I retarded the timing I then reconnected the advance wire, cleared the code that gets set, and re-checked the timing. To my surprise the timing at idle was still quite a bit advanced. I'd say maybe ~15°.

But that's what it was.

I'm using an OLD (1950's?) neon timing light and I think that I read somewhere that using this kind of timing light could be a problem. But I really don't understand why that would be. The only drawback that I can see is that it's very dim and thus I have to do it after dark to be able to see the marks clearly. My old xenon timing light (that I haven't used in years) isn't working anymore (dunno why) and I will try to get that working again for next time. Either that or get another one (on the cheap) off Ebay or otherwise.

I'll update my other thread to just say to check here for the final result.
 
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Glad you jumped that hurtle, good luck with it.
 
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